"David Puente, a former employee of Casaleggio, recounts how, in anticipation of important decisions, the employees and the all-important blog of party co-founder Beppe Grillo would adopt a certain line with the aim of influencing the decision. “It was enough for Grillo to say A, and the members would vote A.”

“It’s a wasted opportunity,” said Yago Bermejo Abati, the project coordinator of Media Lab Prado in Madrid, who was originally involved in designing Podemos’s participation portal. “Given all the initial hope, this is a great disappointment.”

The only disappointing thing here is that there's people out there who believe that adding a layer of "direct democracy" to the system could fix the colossal tower of shit that is representative democracy....

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"We may be only just starting to understand how digital democracy can help address the crisis of legitimacy that is affecting different levels of the political process."

No my dude, there is no fixing the "crisis of legitimacy". Representative democracy is a bourgeois scam designed from the ground up to remove power from the people and lock it in a parliament, where it can be safely controlled.

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Il punto è che l'unica applicazione possibile nel contesto di democrazia rappresentativa (ormai palesemente fallimentare) è la democrazia interna ai partiti, unica entità che costituzionalmente può delegare verso il basso ed essere trasparente.
In prospettiva questo potrebbe portare ad una delegittimazione del partito come entità a sé e portare ad una dissociazione della democrazia rappresentativa, verso una democrazia diretta basata su modelli di consenso altri.

@cirku17 che poi anche li... che democrazia interna vuoi avere se si fa tutto come dice il capetto di turno? Qua ci vuole un rifiuto radicale di ogni struttura centralizzata, centralizzante e permanente, se no non se ne esce.

@Antanicus Verissimo. Ma essendo il sistema partitico centralizzante non si può fare altro che decentralizzare per quanto possibile a partire da questo. Al contrario dei 5S si può andare fino in fondo per raggiungere l'obiettivo (che loro non hanno) di applicazione di modelli di consenso alternativi. Realisticamente è l'unica strada. Rifiutare, non accettare, disapprovare sono operazioni del pensiero, non dell'agire.

@Antanicus In verità ci sarebbe la via intermedia dei cosiddetti Think Tank, dove si sintetizzano progetti politici per forze politiche più o meno predeterminate. In italia e non queste sono realtà costituite da lobbismo e marketing ma potenzialmente sarebbe un luogo privilegiato per operazioni di teorizzazione e sviluppo di strumenti e politiche alternative.

@cirku17 nah, sono solo l'ennesima variante di istituzioni centralizzate, gerarchiche e alienate dal potere popolare. E poi... le vie intermedie lasciamole ai democristiani :)

@Antanicus Alternative? Accelerazionismo a suon di meme? Rivoluzione oggi no, domani forse ma dopodomani sicuramente?

@cirku17 educazione. continua, instancabile, determinata educazione. L'attuale tessuto umano (devastato da 200 anni di psicosi capitalista) non pronto per recepire alcun cambiamento sostanziale. Il vero atto rivuluzionario è educare le persone.

@Antanicus Mi sembra un buon approccio. L'educazione, almeno infantile, è però di solito anch'essa in mano allo stato, e la poca educazione civica che si insegna è ovviamente quella ufficiale. Per non parlare dei livelli superiori in cui la spinta alle pressioni del mondo del lavoro capitalistico è ancora maggiore.
Però sono con te che ci si può mettere del proprio.

@cirku17 per questo sogno da anni di aprire una scuola cooperativa, libera dalle influenze del controllo statale (nei limiti del possibile) in cui sperimentare autogestione, autoproduzione, democrazia diretta e forme anarchiche di organizzazione...


Well, “power to the people” results in the likes of Mr #Salvini becoming a minister.

Are you sure you want the polloi in charge of matters?

Especially when they seem to be the first to forget that in our political system, #democracy operates within the bounds of #freedom, #justice and #legitimacy. Not doing so results in the quickest way to #totalitarianism, as we saw in the early 20th century.

Hope this helps.

@61 to believe that the rise of Salvini (and Orban, and Kaczynski, and Trump) is a case of "power to the people" is naive to say the least. The problem is not the poeple, but the 30+ years of neoliberal policies that have devastated the middle class. The fact all the above mentioned wannabe tyrants share the same exact tactics (fearmongering, external enemies, "let's go back to the good times") is a clear sign of this.

Can you substantiate your assertion that “the middle class has been devastated in the last thirty years”?

Afterwards we could perhaps talk about correlation and causality, but I'd like to see your data first.

@61 I am all for debate, but sealioning is not an option. Consider this my last warning.

Your link leads to a blank page in #Klar. Anyway, I've looked it up.

So we should accept your assertion about the (Western, I presume?) middle class just because you say so?

Being a technical type, I work with data not mere assertions. If you have provided that information on this thread, I haven't seen it.

@61 no, you are not expected to accept anything because a mr. nobody on the internet says so.

But, on the other hand, the evidence of the devastation brought onto western middle class by neoliberal policies is so abundant and widely accepted as conclusive that pretending this is just me "saying so" is borderline trolling. That's all.


I do not deal with these specific aspects, but I do do market research with some regularity. I don't recall seeing any indications of the Western middle class having become objectively poorer or smaller since the end of the Cold War. The only thing I have seen is increased fiscal pressure (which a priori would be in line with an enrichment of said middle class).

That is why I ask. Perhaps you deal with different datasets than I.


Btw, what about the *emergence* of a middle class in the developing world and the #BRIC countries?

Would it be a problem if, hypothetically, some of the wealth in the West had migrated to those places?

@61 the problem is not the middle class emerging in BIRCS countries (and mind you, we refer to it as "middle class" only because it's comprised of people who are marginally better off compared to the BRICS poor) but the way the wealthiest people on the planet (the famed 1%) vacuumed up wealth. See the B point in the attached chart? That's the western middle class.


This assumes that no wealth has been created since 1990???

Another thing that stands out about the so-called 1% is that it consists of a large number of self-made people, indicating a high degree of social mobility. Effectively, your 1% are just financially very successful middle class.

How did they get there? The two billionaires I've personally dealt with, through hard work, stamina and sheer single-mindedness. Systemically, any of us had the same chances.

Just saw your graph. Are you saying that the #Western middle class is on the 80th percentile of global income distribution? That's hardly something to whine about is it? Also according to your graph, the highest gains were obtained by those in the 0th‒70th percentile, so the lower middle class and the poor. And nobody has actually lost anything (no negative ordinates).

@Antanicus Lo strumento è utile, ma i 5 stelle l'hanno applicato pensando che potesse scalare fino al livello parlamentare, cosa prevedibilmente impossibile. Se poi ci mettiamo la prigione di contratti privati e la capacità di controllo della Casaleggio Ass. ci si ritrova un sistema peggiore di quello che si diceva di osteggiare.


The elephant in the room (well, Puente alludes to it) is that for any form of democracy (direct, representative, …) to work it is necessary to have:

1. Current, reliable and abundant information, and
2. The ability to interpret it timely and accurately.

Only then could sensible decisions be made.

@61 which is exactly why the only sane way forward is democratic confederalism. Hyper-local councils allow for almost real time exchange of information and close to zero reaction times.


Nothing against the idea of what you call “hyper local councils” in principle.

I lived in #Libya for a while, under the #Jamahiriya, which is effectively what you are describing, and it worked surprisingly well, although serious issues remained unsolved relating to corruption, favouritism, tribalism and xenophobia.

Of course, this wasn't a pure system either since the leadership of Number One, as he was known, was a bit more than “spiritual”.


This would seem to indicate, however, that you still need a population with strong egalitarian beliefs and a number of technocrats to handle the more complex issues.

@61 that's correct. Education, both technical and political, is paramount to the success of such a system.

@61 yeah, the intentions were good (at least based on what is written in the Kitab) but the man lost it big time after a while.

If you are interested in the topic, the Democratic Federation of Rojava is a living, breathing laboratory where democratic confederalism is being implemented as we speak


The man was both a genius and a complete nutcase.

I believe the full version of this speech illustrates his qualities quite clearly. Do not forget to contrast with #Saud's reaction:

I never met Number One, though I met Number Two briefly once. Very intelligent, polite, witty and highly educated but unlike their father, the offspring were opportunists through and through with not a hint of idealism.

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